Queer Catholic: This Church is my home

Bonn – Being lesbian and Catholic – there are still areas of tension today, says religious education teacher and activist Mirjam Gräve in an interview with katholisch.de. She and her wife have therefore made special decisions.

In June, "Pride Month," queer people in many countries advocate for diversity and visibility. Three years after the launch of the "OutInChurch" initiative, in which people from the church came out as queer, the question arises: What is the current state of acceptance in the church? Mirjam Gräve (48) is a= teacher of Catholic religion and education at a school in Bonn. She and her wife have a two-and-a-half-year-old son. She was part of "OutInChurch" and is also a spokesperson for the "Network of Catholic Lesbians." In this interview, she talks about social dynamics, church standstills—and their personal consequences.

Question: Ms. Gräve, three years have passed since "OutInChurch." Every year, during "Pride Month" in June, queer people reveal themselves in all their diversity. What's it like in the church? Can you now be completely yourself, can you be "proud"?

Gräve: I'm definitely proud of "OutInChurch" and what it has set in motion. But what's important to me is that queer Christians were already involved before. I myself have been active in the Network of Catholic Lesbians for years. My coming out was much longer than three years ago. I can be proud of many achievements of homosexual people in the church; we show ourselves and get involved. What I'm not proud of, however, is my homosexuality itself, because I've had it since birth. It's my gift from God. I wouldn't use the term "pride" for that.

Question: Can you be completely yourself in the church?

Gräve: I'm experiencing a change there. As a network of Catholic lesbians, we always have a booth at the Catholic Day, for example, and we notice that acceptance has increased in recent years. People still walk past quickly, perhaps with a comment, but less so than before. Instead, many more people come to us and explicitly say: It's good that you're here. I'm also noticing this change in many parishes: Visibility is no longer a big problem. This impression changes the higher you go in the church hierarchy—there are certainly still reservations. Furthermore, there are conservative groups within the church that still reject homosexuality. But I don't come into contact with them in my everyday life – we simply live in different bubbles.

Question: What has changed for you personally in the three years since "OutInChurch"?

Gräve: I never expected such great public interest. I received many inquiries because, at first, many participants were still very unsure about whether they should speak to the public. So, I was suddenly on television – I had underestimated that. It had long been clear to me that I was visible in the church and didn't lead a double life. The people on both sides of the teacher's desk had known that about me for a long time. After the documentary that aired about "OutInChurch," people from youth work with whom I hadn't had contact in a long time wrote to me. In addition, there have been very tangible changes through "OutInChurch," for example, in labor law. Public pressure has actually led to changes in the basic order and labor injustice there. The church wouldn't have moved on its own.

"The discrimination is there – even in people's minds."— Quote: Mirjam Gräve

Question: If you look at the grassroots and the teaching authority together – would you still say in 2025: Lesbian and Catholic, there are points of friction and contradictions?

Gräve: I wouldn't say "no" to that. In personal contact – including with bishops – I experience that they fully accept me and my way of life. But the Catechism hasn't been changed yet, and there's no sign of that happening. Chastity is still imposed on me. The discrimination is there – even in people's minds. Given the shift to the right in society, my concerns are also growing. In some countries, including European ones, bishops are actively involved in the increasing marginalization of queer people. Here in Germany, the Church fortunately clearly distances itself from the AfD. But in internal church discourse, I would like to see a bolder line – perhaps with a clear request to Rome to change the Catechism. Or to see the paper on blessing ceremonies developed by the Synodal Committee not as an end point, but as a starting point. I would like to see more momentum there.

Question: How do you personally experience life in the Church as a lesbian woman?

Gräve: In personal contact, this is often not an issue. With regard to the church hierarchy, my wife and I have made some decisions, so some topics are not relevant to us. For example, we will not request a blessing for our marriage because we are not supplicants – our love is already blessed by God, and we bless each other. That's how it is with married couples. Having to expect a rejection from a parish when we request one – that's not something we want. We also thought long and hard about whether to have our two-and-a-half-year-old son baptized Catholic. In the end, we decided against it because we didn't want to fit him into that system. He has now been baptized Old Catholic and thus lives in an environment of complete acceptance, where the external structures also fit the internal ones. This is not the case with our church: In the Archdiocese of Cologne, there were sanctions for those who celebrated the "Love Wins" services in 2021.

Question: Wouldn't it be a logical step to become an Old Catholic myself?

Gräve: My wife is a religious education teacher at Caritas, and I am a Catholic religious education teacher. We both have a traditional Catholic upbringing. This Church is our home, which we don't want to give up. We are here. I continue to advocate for the need for change. I'm not without hope either: There are inclusive and welcoming approaches within the Church that also appeal to us. Another factor, of course, is that my wife and I would no longer be able to continue working as before after leaving. Our professions are dear to us – so such a step must be very carefully considered.

Question: Are there places in the Church where you deliberately don't go because you wouldn't be accepted there?

Gräve: I'm generally not invited to these places. I don't consciously go to such places to provoke or position myself. I notice the fractures in other places: When I was invited to one of the "Wednesday Talks" at the Maxhaus in Düsseldorf, the organizer was very surprised when some believers deliberately didn't attend and demanded that I be expelled from the church. That didn't surprise me. I was also once invited to a student association to present "OutInChurch." There were conservative voices who made it clear in the discussion with me that they consider homosexuality a sin. But: As long as a discourse about it can take place, as long as we are in a space and there is the opportunity to talk to each other and have new experiences—I am also having new experiences there—it is a good and effective process.

Question: Especially in light of such events, it is quite possible that people—for example, from your student body—will come to you and ask for advice. Do you recommend that they remain in the church as queer people?

Gräve: That's very individual. Listening often makes it clear which path is emerging for a particular person—and that varies greatly. For me, it's about empowering people: You are wanted by God just as you are. Many people also draw energy from their faith for their queerness, for example, to overcome challenges from their parents. There are many places for queer people in the church. But if the path leads outside the church, I won't stop anyone.

Question: Especially when it comes to homosexuality in the church, men are often the focus—for example, when it comes to questions about the priesthood. Do lesbians take a back seat?

Gräve: As lesbians, we are doubly discriminated against. Being a woman in the church is already not easy, because women's rights continue to be trampled underfoot in the church, keyword women's priesthood. Then there is homosexuality on top of that. In a structure full of male unions, this is a double exclusion. Sometimes there is even a perpetrator-victim reversal: Because I ask uncomfortable questions, I'm suddenly the bad guy. Yet it is precisely queer people who have suffered and continue to suffer under the church. Often enough, there is still a lack of awareness of these experiences of marginalisation. Because it is precisely the commitment to people who are discriminated against that is central to the Christian message.

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